Jews and Christians against Messianics and Jeshuaists

Prophets, teachers, missionaries and evangelisers

J4J Messianic Jewish non-profit organization founded in 1973, sharing its belief that Jesus (Jeshua) is the promised Messiah of the Jewish people

Jews might find missionaries like “Jews for Jesus” or Messianics, Hebrew Christians or other types of groups. According to several Jews those preachers are false teachers or false messengers. Also the Jewish Concerns Forum (JCF) looks down at such people who call Jews to come to accept Jeshua as the Messiah. For them those missionaries who would claim to Jews that the Messiah has come by the person of Jeshua it is a

deception in order to seek converts or perhaps is their sincere belief that Jesus is not God, but is the Messiah, in the human sense that that Jews accept, or they rebrand him as being seen like a Chassidic Rabbi, like the chassidic Jews have their rabbis, and so the ‘true’ Christians or original followers of Jesus are just like chassidic Jews following their rabbi Yeshua (Jesus). {How we know that Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist were not Prophets – Understanding Prophecy in Torah}

The “Jewish concerns forum” (JCF)

cannot simply just assert that someone is a prophet because they claim to be. Both Jews and Christians agree that the prophetic writings included in the Tanakh in the Hebrew scriptures are credible and reliable. No one denies that Jeremiah or Isaiah were prophets.

According to the JCF

the reasons that each religion accepts their testimony is not the same.

They say

A Christian missionary will often claim that the reason they accept that Isaiah was a prophet is because it is in the Bible, and the Bible is scripture and Jesus accepted that the Bible was divine and from God. They will often rely on quoting from the prophets in asserting that they foretold the prophecies that Jesus would fulfil. This shows that they must therefore believe that the prophets words were credible and authoritative to them. But how would they know that their words were prophetic at the times that they lived, hundreds of years before Jesus.

Sent one from God

JCF like all Jews should know it is not because Jesus or others would have said they are prophets, but it is because the ancient books (or Hebrew Books) of the set-apart Scriptures tell us that they are men sent from God and that they were considered to be prophecies by Jews in the times that they lived. For sure that is the same reason why Jews would accept being them prophets, also believing the Torah was divine. JCF seems to be mistaken, thinking christians would not know that

Even today there are words in the prophets that have not yet been fulfilled but yet they are accepted as authoritative and the word of God by Jews.

The same as for Christians (be they trinitarian or non-trinitarian).

Believing words and hearing Words of God

For Jews and Christians alike it should be reason enough to believe what is written in the Tanakh and that we should accept the Torah and the prophecy of Moshe because the entire nation heard the Elohim Jehovah, the God above all gods, speak to God’s Chosen People. We are told and we believe that God’s People could hear the Most High God directly at Mount Sinai and did not hear from God solely through Moses.

Often people think that Moses just went up the mountain and then came down with some tablets. If this were the case he could easily have made these tablets himself and then claim he spoke to God and He gave them to him. But this is not what the Torah says. It says:

“HaShem said to Moses,

“Behold! I come to you in the thickness of the cloud, so that the people will hear as I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever.” (Exodus 19:8-9)

That believe for ever should also be part of the follower of the Nazarene rebbe Jeshua, who followed Judaic tradition.

For Jews and also for Christians it is (or should be) clear that what makes Moses and the first five books of the Torah written by him, the yardstick for all future revelations, is that lots of people came to hear the Voice of God. (Exodus 20:1-14, Deuteronomy, 4:33-35) JCF seems to overlook that for those who are calling the Jews to come to recognise Jeshua as the Christ or Messiah the core of their faith is the Faith of Abraham and the believe that what is written in the Torah is the ultimate authority.

Guide books for believers

For Jeshuaists we can not go without the Torah, we are nothing without the Scriptures which should be our main Guidebook. It is the Book of books, the Bestseller of all times, we call the Bible which is the highest authority and brings us the inspired infallible Word of God.

According JCF

in the case of the later prophets … their words were not revealed with a national revelation like that of Moses.

But we do not think that should be necessary, because we are further told about the tasks those men of God received and can see how they wrote down what God wanted them to write down.

God revealed in the Torah He gave to Moses a credible vetting system that we are to follow in order to test those who will come in the future claiming that they are a prophet. If one is a true prophet then the Jewish people are obligated to listen to what he says. But at the same time we were warned at Sinai that God will send false prophets as well.

It is no difference today as in the old times, people have to be very careful who they are going to consider as a prophet or as a teacher speaking for God .

The Torah says in Deuteronomy:

“The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. If there stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying,

“Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!”

– do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for Hashem , your G-d is testing you to know whether you love Hashem your G-d with all your heart and all your soul. ” (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)

JCF says

We can infer from this what signs might lead one to think that one might be a prophet, such as the ability to produce a sign or a wonder. A miracle or predicting future events correctly for example. This indeed is important in so far as getting our attention, but is not enough to determine whether or not he is indeed to be listened to. We learn that if he teaches the people to follow gods that the people did not know then they are not to be listened to.

A god opposite The God and evangelisation

Many Jews may be confronted by missionaries who preach about Jesus not just being a god (an important person) but being The God, which is not what all Christians believe. Those missionaries who want their followers to worship multiple gods and do have graven images of their gods in their churches, people should be able to recognise as false teachers. For true followers of Jeshua, Jesus is not The God but the sent one from God, like Scriptures tell us.

The people who determine whether or not the subject of worship differs from what was experienced at Sinai is the Jewish people and the testimony that has been passed down to them by their parents and grandparents. This is particularly apparent when missionaries try to convince the Jews through their evangelism that God is part of a trinity or a triune deity. No Jew ever understood God in such terms.

No real Christian would go for such evangelisation or evangelism. True Christians keep to the Biblical Truth, where there is no such thing as a Trinity. Real Messianics shall also not find any place either for such false doctrinal teachings introduced in the 4th century.

In fact the early Jewish followers of Jesus too never believed in such a thing.

remarks JCF and that is the main reason why real followers of Jeshua would have to follow in the tradition of Jeshua and his disciples.

This is clearly different to what the witnesses of the Sinai revelation passed down in their testimony of what the concept of God is and how to worship Him.

We like every believer and lover of God should remember do not forget the words of Scripture:

“Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God from amidst the fire and survived? Or has any god ever miraculously come to take for himself a nation from amidst a nation, with challenges, with signs, and with wonders, and with war, and with a strong hand and with an outstretched arm, and with greatly awesome deeds, such as everything that HaShem, your God, did for you in Egypt before your eyes? You have been shown in order to know that HaShem, He is the God! There is none beside Him!” (Deuteronomy, 4:33-35)

Testimony not solely delivered to and for the Jewish people only

No other god (high being) able to stand next to Him, Who is the Highest of all gods. As followers of Christ, Jeshuaists, we are convinced that there is none besides Jehovah, The Most High Divine Maker God. It is wrong to think Torah is the testimony solely delivered to and for the Jewish people only. They have been the witnesses, but they also were the spreaders of the Words they heard and believed in. Jeshua, was a devout Jew who very well knew the Torah and lived by the Torah. In case he would be still in his grave, he would turn around (by matter of speech) for what the Christian world made of his teachings.

JCF remarks

God as taught to the Jews by their parents and ancestors is what defines God.

Some Christian groups may argue that Jesus in the gospel accounts did not believe he was God, He clearly believes himself to be inferior to the Father and not His equal.

Other Christians will disagree and assert that Jesus himself believed he was God the son, or at least a co-equal to God or God made flesh. This by all accounts in Judaism is unacceptable.

Those who accepted Jesus as the one to follow, the sent one from God and as such also a prophet of God are willing to take the Messianic Writings also as part of their Bible. JCF looks down at such an added part to the bible and says

Many missionary sects now days seeking to persuade Jews to accept Jesus and subsequently the Christian Bible will agree with this position and they can find compelling verses in the gospels (e.g. Matthew 5:17-19, 19:16-17, Luke 16:17) to demonstrate that Jesus would have agreed with the Jewish position. This does not make Jesus a credible prophet for other reasons, but if he were it would mean that based on the gospels he falls under the category of a false prophet that claims to prophesy in the name of God.

Contradictions and disagreements

According to JCF Jeshua would be a false prophet because JCF find that he contradict the Torah in different places, but that is not so.

What the Christian missionary does not mention is that there are other verses in the gospels that are ascribed to Jesus where he does contradict the Torah.

JCF writes, though recognises several Christians would not agree with that. He adds

Christian apologists will defend this assertion by claiming that he was not disagreeing with the Torah, he was just disagreeing with the Rabbis of his time, or he was just “reinterpreting” the Torah, or something to that affect. These explanations do not fit with the Jewish criteria. On the first argument that he never spoke against the Torah, the following verse from the gospel of John undermines the Torah explicitly:

“Thomas said to Him,

“Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?”

Jesus said to him,

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”” (John 14:5-8)

Being stuck with the thought of ancient times JCF writes

The Jews were not taught that they cannot come to God but through the Messiah. They can connect to God through the commandments as they were taught.

The message of Jeshua that people do need him to come to God is not for them who died before his time, because they would never be able to know Jeshua to accept him as the Way to God. Like the other prophets Jeshua showed the way to God. JCF should see that always throughout the times it were prophets who showed the way to God. It where the prophets who warned people for the wrath of God and who asked them to turn to God.

Facing not just a prophet, but a rebbe and Messiah

We do recognise for Jews the most difficult point concerning the faith of Christians or Jeshuaists is that claim of Christianity that Jesus is not

just a prophet, but that he is the Messiah.

This involves a different discussion as to the role of the Messiah which on numerous accounts Jesus does not fit the biblical criteria.

JCF says.

Those who wish to suggest that he was a Rabbi and that they follow him as a Rabbi are being dishonest for if they see him simply as a Rabbi then the first point is that there is no evidence that he was a respected Sage of the generation, for we know who the sages were in that time period and we have their teachings and writings recorded in within the Talmud.

But from the historic writings we do know how much the Judaic centre in Jerusalem opposed the teachings of rebbe Jeshua. Therefore he would not be respected as a true rabbi of their own group or sort. On the other part one also can say

Why should his teachings to be included in the Talmud among many others?

Thousands of rabbi’s their teachings are also not found in the Talmud, though many Jewish groups refer back to those rabbis of the previous centuries and consider them a s worthy master teachers who brought material which should inspire us and which we should follow.

Talmudic teachers

Is JCF than also referring to such Jewish groups as being false Jewish groups? Does JCF  considers only the Talmudic teachers as the acceptable rabbis and do they not value the other rabbis and other Jewish groups who have other maser teachers then his denomination?

JCF does as if Christianity would be a pick of a mix of liked teachings by one or the other group. JCF says

Judaism is not a pick and mix of following the rulings of whoever one finds to ones taste.

Does JCF not see the many different Jewish groups than? Or what does JCF thinks would make the differences between the many Jewish communities all over the world?

JCF admits they have great Talmudic teachers and says further

We have great Sages in the Talmud who are very respected, but the law is not always ruled according to them, but according to another. This doesn’t necessarily mean that they were wrong, there just has to be one ruling on the given case.

So to argue that Jesus simply held a minority view that interpreted something differently to the majority does not help in making a credible Jewish argument. One could suggest the same with other authorities that are accepted among the Tanaim (earliest rabbinic Sages), this too would be unacceptable.

Teachings on the same line

Though JCF forgets that the main teaching in Christianity (i.e. the non-trinitarian Christian groups) is on one and the same line. It are minor differences, often much smaller than the differences between the many Jewish groups. Those non-trinitarian Christians have even so many exactly the same teachings often outsiders do not see any difference between them and often take one for the other. Look for example at the Bible Students. Most people by hearing a person is a bible student would think of the Jehovah Witnesses and would not see that this group is already a schism group of the American Bible Students or the International Bible Students.

Historicity

JCF claims that

We are not certain what Jesus believed historically. On the one hand the words ascribed to him in the gospels as we have seen above could be argued either way.

But can that not be said of the other prophets either?

JCF wrongly thinks

We do not know with certainly who the historical Jesus was and what he believed.

We have enough historical civil documents next to the documents of the talmidim and of their disciples, witnesses and followers of the first hours. If JCF does not want to trust the reliability of the Christian Scriptures, that is their choice, like others also not want to trust the reliability of the Hebrew Scriptures. Also whether Jeshua (Jesus)

was a loyal Pharisee Jew who didn’t preach against the Torah is interesting but irrelevant. What is more important is the messianic claims ascribed to him, which is separate to our current discussion.

Messianic movements

Shabbetai Tzevi, also spelled Sabbatai Zebi or Sabbatai Zevi, a false messiah who developed a mass following and threatened rabbinical authority in Europe and the Middle East.

But for followers of his teachings it is a major point of belief. There may also be found other Messianics who follow an other Messiah than Jeshua. In history we can find several Messianic movements, like a.o. Sabbatai Zevi and his messianic movement . But on these pages we shall show and proof that there is enough reason to believe in the son of man, born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, Jeshua from the tribe of David, that he is the sent one from God spoken about in the Gan Eden and later talked about a lot, being the long awaited Messiah.

Tovah Janovsky like many of us in West Europe, though living in America (Florida we believe), finds she does not receive enough respect. She writes

Messianic Judaism is like the Rodney Dangerfield (ed.note: American stand-up comedian, actor, producer and screenwriter known for his self-deprecating humour and his catchphrase “I don’t get no respect!” and his monologues on that theme.) of all religions…. We don’t get no respect! Because we do not exclusively call ourselves Jews nor Christians creates an unsettling effect on those two groups and many others. {No Respect!!!}

She recognises the biggest problem which faces us.

People like to put labels on you so they know what pigeonhole to put you in. It makes them feel safe and comfortable. To proclaim yourself as a Messianic Jew is akin to trying to put a square peg in a round hole. {No Respect!!!}

We even perhaps daring to say like what we sometimes hear

“Being a Messianic Jew is like wanting to have suicidal aims.”

Demanding respect

Throughout her life her feet touched on many spiritual paths such as Catholicism, Eastern Religions, Spiritualism, Astral Projection and Biblical Christianity. {Stranger in a Strange Land…….A Pilgrim’s Progress} In 1981 she defined herself as a “born again Christian”, a label she enthusiastically applied to herself, though living in the United States of America we wonder if she than was not recognised as one of the many fundamentalist evangelicals?

True, my spirit was “born again” into a way deeper commitment to God. Along that path I spoke “Christianese” salting my speech with “Hallelujahs” and “Praise the Lord”.

Her relationship to Jeshua is more important to writing and she loves to share many of her moments with Jeshua in her blog Tovahsez, where she also encountered the same problems we encounter here in Europe.

We’ve heard all the usual arguments…..

”If you believe in Jesus, then aren’t you a Christian?”

We reply,

“No, because we identify with the very first believers who were Jews”.

We observe the biblical Sabbath and the moedim (appointed times, feasts)…..Christians do not. {No Respect!!!}

Though, there she does not seem to know about the many Christians who keep to the feasts given by God. She further writes

We take our cues from the Jewish believers of 2000 years ago who remained true to their Jewish roots and also accepted Yeshua as the promised Messiah. We are not deterred from this faith position by the opinions and lack of acceptance of others. Therefore, we say to our detractors

“Get Over It – We’re Here to Stay”. {No Respect!!!}

And that is what we would love to have others to know in Europe and Asia and further East to know also. Coming closer to the end-times the world shall have to know that the preaching of the Good News of the coming Kingdom of God shall increase and more people shall have to have their eyes opened to see how they too can come to God and have their relation with the Divine Creator restored.

More and more there shall come out people who want to show the world there is a solution against all the problems in this world and that there is a man who paved the way to better times.

Coming closer to the end-times more and more people shall come to understand we do have to live according to the mitzvoth of the Most High and have to call others to join hand to become partakers of the Body of Christ, worshipping the same God as he did, the Hashem Jehovah, the One and Only One True God.

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Preceding

Given opportunity to accept Christ as Messiah

Difference between a Messianic Gentile, a Messianic Jew and a Christian

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Additional reading

1. Souls and Religions with Nirvana and light
2. Reading to grow and to become wise concerning the most important thing in life 2 Prophetic and poetic writers
3. Called Immanuel does not mean to be Jesus being God
4. Memorizing wonderfully 30 False prophets and false teachers
5. Signs of the Last Days
6. The Trinity matter
7. Trinity – behind a false doctrine
8. Trinity – History
9. The Sabbatean Prophets
10. Converso Involvement in the Sabbatai Zevi Movement
11. Sabbatai Zevi (Jewish Convert To Islam)
12. Place for a fifth and sixth house in Christendom
13. No Respect!!!

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